Could Joseph and Imhotep have been the same person?

Just another truthinlove.com weblog

If Joseph was Imhotep of the 3rd dynasty and Moses was Amenemhet IV of the 12th dynsasty, where do David and Solomon fit in?

with 12 comments

A schematic diagram illustrating the relationship the Egyptian Kingdoms and dynasties and the various phases of Israel as the Israelites grew to be a nation while they were in Egypt and then traveled to the promised land where they were ruled initially by Judges and later by Kings. The nation of Israel became divided into North (Israel) and South (Judah) after Solomon.

A schematic diagram illustrating the relationship between the Egyptian Kingdoms and dynasties and the various phases of Israel as the Israelites grew to be a nation while they were in Egypt and then traveled to the promised land where they were ruled initially by Judges and later by Kings. The nation of Israel became divided into North (Israel) and South (Judah) after Solomon. There was no first intermediate period.

The Bible says that Joseph was a sage or vicroy for the Pharaoh and Imhotep fits the bill perfectly.   Moses was an Israelite baby who was adopted by the Pharaoh’s daughter and raised as her own.  Maybe he would have been a pharaoh if he did not have to go into exile in Midian for 40 yrs at the age of 40.  The Israelites had to make mud bricks and work the fields for pharaoh.  There were 2 million Israelites and they were slaves in Egypt for at least half of the time that they were there. Even if they only made one mudbrick per person per day, that’s a lot of mudbricks.  The 12th dynasty pyramids had a core that was made of mudbricks.  Amenemhet III was the last pharaoh of the 12th dynasty to build a pyramid.  In fact, he built two pyramids that had mudbrick cores and he also built the labyrinth.  He reigned for 46 yrs and had a daughter called Sobekneferu who had no children of her own.  Another figure called Amenemhet IV who had no genealogical records, co-reigned with Amenemhet III for 9 yrs and then suddenly disappeared.  Moses may well have been Amenemhet IV.  This would make sense and agree with Bible as Moses was raised by pharaoh and was being groomed to be the next pharaoh. This was around the time that Moses had to flead to Midian.  Sobekneferu took over after Amenemhet III died but only reigned 4-8 years and then she died and the 12th dynasty ended.  There was a rapid succession of pharaohs in the 13th dynasty and second intermediate period. Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt 430 years after they first came to Egypt at the age of 80 during the reign of Neferhotep I. The Israelites were in the wilderness for 40 yrs. Then they were lead into to promised land by Joshua.  The period of the Judges lasted around 400 yrs.  Then Saul became the first king of Israel who was succeeded by David who was succeeded by Solomon.  The dates for Solomon building the temple are fairly established and accepted even by worldly archaeolgists as around 960BC.  The bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before this.
Saul and David were Kings of Israel.  It does not make sense to try and equate them with an Egyptian pharaoh.  It would be good to know which pharaoh in Egypt was ruling when David and Solomon were ruling in Israel.
From what I can see, it appears that Apopi II, the last pharaoh of the second intermediate period – a Hyksos was driven out of Egypt by a rebellion lead by Kahmose, the son of Sequenre and the brother of Ahmose I.  When Apopi II and the Hyksos left Egypt heading north, they encountered the Israelites who were lead by Saul at the time.  Samuel instructed Saul to put them all to death.  Saul all but wiped out the Hyksos as instructed  but disobeyed Samuel by sparing Agag (Apopi II).  Samuel put him to death himself.  Ahmose I became the first pharaoh of the New kingdom of Egypt while Saul continued to reign in Israel.  Saul in Israel was then succeeded by David and then Solomon and Ahmose I in Egypt was succeeded by Amenhotep I, then Thutmoses I followed by Thutmose II and then Hatshepsut (the Queen of Sheeba who visited Solomon).  Thutmoses III succeeded Hatshepsut and became the most powerful pharaoh of Egypt plundering Israel during the period of the divided kingdom of Israel. He was the Shishak of the Bible.  David was 1000BC and Saul about 1040BC.  If the Egyptian dates do not match it is because they are wrong.  The Egyptian dates need to be revised – I could go on and on as to why they are wrong but just accept this for now.

United_Israel_synchronisms

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12 Responses

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  1. I don’t think that Moses was Amenemhet IV. I don’t think that the Bible would leave it out if Moses was Pharaoh for some time. What I do think is possible is that Amenemhet IV could have actually been the Pharaoh that opposed Moses in the Exodus. See this article next: http://www.creationsixdays.net/2013_ICC_Habermehl_Joseph.pdf

    PRgirl94

    November 26, 2014 at 5:59 am

    • Amenemhet IV never reigned as a Pharaoh by himself. He only co-reigned with Amenemhet III for 9 yrs. This is consistent with Moses being Amenemhet IV and Amenemhet III being the Pharaoh of Moses birth and the Pharaoh that Moses fled from. Amenemhet IV suddenly disappeared at the time Moses went into exile. There are no genealogical records of Amenemhet IV’s parents and Amenemhet IV’s mummy was never found and his burial chamber was never located further supporting the assertion that he was Moses. Moses’s birth pharaoh had to have reigned at least 40 yrs and Amenemhet III reigned for 46 yrs.

      gospelclips

      November 26, 2014 at 7:01 am

      • Neferhotep was the exodus pharaoh. Scarabs found in Kahun indicate that this slave villiage was occuppied up until the time of Neferhotep of the 13th dynasty. The town was suddenly abandoned as evidenced by the numerous tools and artifacts left behind. There were numerous coffins containing multiple babies found in the Town. These would have been left by the Israelites as evidence of the genocide ordered by Pharaoh (Amenemhet III who co-reigned with Sesostris III) when Moses was a baby.

        gospelclips

        November 26, 2014 at 7:08 am

      • I still don’t know. According to Anne Habermehl, Amenemhet IV wouldn’t have been sole ruler for very long and the reason for his missing body could have been his drowning in the Red Sea. Besides, if Moses was a Pharaoh or co-ruler at the time of his self-exile from Egypt, do you think that that Israelite slave would have questioned his authority over them? The slave specifically asked him, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us?” And he knew who he was talking to. Does that sound like he was talking to a Pharaoh or co-ruler of Egypt?

        PRgirl94

        November 27, 2014 at 2:22 am

      • There is no evidence that Amenemhet IV was the exodus pharaoh. He did not co-reign long enough to be Moses Birth Pharaoh. He was followed by Sobeknefru who was likely to be the person who raised Moses in Pharaoh’s household. When she died the 12th dynasty ended. There was a rapid succession of pharaohs in the thirteenth dynasty. Neferhotep was the longest reigning 11 yrs. The Slave Village at Kahun was occupied up until Neferhotep according to the scarab records. Neferhotep’s body was not found because it was he who drowned in the Red Sea. Amenemhet IV’s body was not found because he was Moses who lead the Israelites out of Egypt. The Bible says that Moses was raised in Pharaohs household as Pharaoh’s own. The pharaoh had no other offspring to continue the dynasty. There are no genealogical records for Amenemhet IV. When Amenemhet III died, Sobeknefru had to take over because Amenemhet IV (Moses) had fled to Midian.

        gospelclips

        November 27, 2014 at 4:35 am

    • A slave may have questioned the pharaoh like that if he knew that the Pharaoh was a Hebrew.

      gospelclips

      November 27, 2014 at 4:51 am

      • I still don’t know. According to Anne Habermehl, Amenemhet IV wouldn’t have been sole ruler for very long and the reason for his missing body could have been his drowning in the Red Sea. Besides, if Moses was a Pharaoh or co-ruler at the time of his self-exile from Egypt, do you think that that Israelite slave would have questioned his authority over them? The slave specifically asked him, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us?” And he knew who he was talking to. Does that sound like he was talking to a Pharaoh or co-ruler of Egypt?

        I’m still not convinced. Even if we rule out Amenemhet IV as the Exodus Pharaoh, that still doesn’t mean that he was Moses. If Moses was a co-ruler of Egypt, he’d have had a considerable amount of power. Why would he have had to kill the Egyptian slave master secretly, when he could have ordered the Egyptian to stop beating his slave or else have him executed? Even after the murder, Moses could have had that Hebrew slave killed for his insolence and kept the news of his murder of the Egyptian from reaching his co-ruler instead of having to run for his life. Amenemhet III would have appointed Moses, if he was Amenemhet IV, as co-ruler and the slave’s question would have been an affront to Amenemhet III’s authority. Moses could easily have used that to justify his execution of that slave and cover up his murder of the Egyptian slave master. As for the slave himself, he already knew that there was a chance of Moses killing him, but if he knew that Moses was Amenemhet IV and that Amenemhet III had appointed him co-ruler of Egypt, then regardless of whether or not he knew that Moses was a Hebrew, would he have sealed his own fate by questioning Amenemhet III’s authority? Also, just because Amenemhet IV’s mummy was never found doesn’t make him Moses even if he wasn’t the Exodus Pharaoh. Out of the hundreds of Pharaohs known, only a fraction of those Pharaohs’ mummies have been found.

        PRgirl94

        November 28, 2014 at 1:51 am

    • While it his hard to prove it conclusively, that Moses was Amenemhet IV, it is very likely that he was. It is also quite plausible and not only that, it would fit with Imhotep being Joseph and David and Saul being contemporary with Egypt’s New Kingdom and Judges of Israel being contemporary with the second intermediate period and the Exodus being in the 13th dynasty with Neferhotep as the Exodus Pharaoh.

      Maybe some of these details are not right but the point is that Moses Joseph and David were all historical figures and were not just folk legends.

      gospelclips

      November 28, 2014 at 5:17 am

      • I understand your point and I actually do believe that Joseph was most likely Imhotep and that Saul and David were most likely contemporaries of the New Kingdom of Egypt. What I’m not so sure about are the ideas that Moses was Amenemhet IV and that Neferhotep I was the Exodus Pharaoh. But I’ve already given you my reasons for doubting the former idea and I’ll give you my reasons for doubting the latter idea on another blog post.

        PRgirl94

        November 28, 2014 at 10:06 am

  2. Plus, according to the woman who wrote that article, Moses would have killed the man who asked him “Who made thee a prince and a judge over us?”, instead of having to run away in fear, if he was even in line to become Pharaoh.

    PRgirl94

    November 26, 2014 at 6:08 am

    • “who made you a prince and ruler over us?” Answer “God”. The slave was addressing Moses personally as a fellow Hebrew. Moses would not have wanted to kill a fellow Hebrew and maybe there were other witnesses too.

      gospelclips

      November 28, 2014 at 5:00 am

    • Moses / Amenemhet IV was in a very high position and could have executed the Egyptian task master publicly for beating the Hebrew slave but this would have revealed his loyalties to the Hebrews over the Egyptians and this is why Moses / Amenemhet IV did this in secret. When it became public, Moses had to flee for his life as he was no longer suitable to be an Egyptian Pharaoh. It would be like a Russian spy becoming US president.

      gospelclips

      November 28, 2014 at 5:04 am


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